It seems to me that the definition of attestation in the passkeys standard is the exact same as HTTPS certificates, which is not bad at all and nearly impossible to rug pull?
Passkeys officially have TPM support: https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn-2/#sctn-tpm-attestation Let’s Encrypt doesn’t require a TPM. Passkeys can apparently require an actual closed-up DRM anti user hardware component to sign what you’re doing.
While Let’s Encrypt requires an external party for signing, 1. it’s not something the average citizen needs or uses a lot, unlike potentially passkeys, 2. there is no variant of it that works via special DRM hardware that they try to establish everyone as having.
Also, Let’s Encrypt is a non-profit while the common Passkey server-side storage vendors don’t seem to be.
there’s formats other than TPM like Apple and FIDO U2F, so I don’t think Apple, Yubikey (which chairs the standard’s working group), and the password manager industry (which already does passkeys) would just let that happen.
i am not convinced regarding TPMs
i am not convinced regarding TPMs, and I agree with the FSF on 90% of other things they say. the essay assumes that making a DRM-free copy will be made hard enough that it’s very impactful (“no excuse for the system” doesn’t really faze me). (c.f. PDFs already technically support prohibiting copying. Nearly all PDF readers support overriding this feature. c.f. email read receipts. c.f. the massive multieclecticism of software to open the same type of document and the aging hulk that is most companies’ IT infrastructure. c.f. “Microsoft quietly extends Windows 10’s extra security updates program for free”.) even if that somehow does happen, partly thanks to how inconvenient that’d make sharing and how companies often need a dozen people to access the same document, there will be somehow a way to share keys.
it’s not something the average citizen needs or uses a lot, unlike potentially passkeys
i would certainly say the average citizen uses HTTPS a lot
Let’s Encrypt is a non-profit while the common Passkey server-side storage vendors don’t seem to be
(context for onlookers: Let’s Encrypt is the most popular certificate authority, while the analogous to attestation is the concept of certificate authorities and not any one certificate authority.)
Let’s Encrypt was only founded in 2012 (and announced 2014) with general availability in 2016, while the current HTTPS standard with certificate authorities had been around since 2000. Passkeys, 2021. I think fairness is something the world needs.
Let’s Encrypt was only founded in 2012 (and announced 2014) with general availability in 2016,
I wouldn’t agree HTTPS was unproblematic before Let’s Encrypt existed, so I’m not sure where you are going with this. The average person doesn’t need a HTTPS cert issued, which I would say is comparable to the average citizen using a passkey. If only some spaces, e.g. enterprise, use them then it’s not a real problem. But that’s why it seems problematic to me once passkeys are pushed for general use.
you’ve also missed the point of
I don’t think that I did, but my apologies if that is the case.
no, i was saying Let’s Encrypt solved HTTPS’s problems. before it HTTPS had the problems people claim passkeys’ attestation certificate chain has. it is very possible an authority equivalent to Let’s Encrypt will come about within the 16 years after 2021.
the average person doesn’t need an passkeys certificate issued either. using a passkey is the equivalent of HTTPS’s TLS packets, not making a new certificate.
why shouldn’t we tell people to boycott the tech until then?
because attestation the conspiracy to use attestation has not activated and i believe the damage is too small even if it did; i’ve argued how TPM reliance would be impossible for a very long time.
that doesn’t solve the threat of a hardware attestation toggle.
just like how Let’s Encrypt made acquiring certs (essentially a requirement for new websites now thanks to HTTPS, just like what you say passkey attestation is) extremely easy, the equivalent for passkeys would make new attestation providers quite easy, since the equivalent authority would be trusted
I disagree.
Why so? What about passkey attestation requires each user to issue a certificate?
I would argue that is different because an Https server doesn’t scale as much as a user login. Also, as someone that had to rely on things like “letsencryp” free certificates for personal servers, this is so annoying to setup and I hate that security needs a third party having to give me something for free and be able to stop giving it at any moment.
I do get the point on servers, is annoying but adds security to people visiting webs. but making this also a problem on the user login side is exactly why people hate this shit, and doesn’t add any security for the users.
It seems to me that the definition of attestation in the passkeys standard is the exact same as HTTPS certificates, which is not bad at all and nearly impossible to rug pull?
Passkeys officially have TPM support: https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn-2/#sctn-tpm-attestation Let’s Encrypt doesn’t require a TPM. Passkeys can apparently require an actual closed-up DRM anti user hardware component to sign what you’re doing.
While Let’s Encrypt requires an external party for signing, 1. it’s not something the average citizen needs or uses a lot, unlike potentially passkeys, 2. there is no variant of it that works via special DRM hardware that they try to establish everyone as having.
Also, Let’s Encrypt is a non-profit while the common Passkey server-side storage vendors don’t seem to be.
Anyway, that’s just my opinion.
there’s formats other than TPM like Apple and FIDO U2F, so I don’t think Apple, Yubikey (which chairs the standard’s working group), and the password manager industry (which already does passkeys) would just let that happen.
i am not convinced regarding TPMs
i am not convinced regarding TPMs, and I agree with the FSF on 90% of other things they say. the essay assumes that making a DRM-free copy will be made hard enough that it’s very impactful (“no excuse for the system” doesn’t really faze me). (c.f. PDFs already technically support prohibiting copying. Nearly all PDF readers support overriding this feature. c.f. email read receipts. c.f. the massive multieclecticism of software to open the same type of document and the aging hulk that is most companies’ IT infrastructure. c.f. “Microsoft quietly extends Windows 10’s extra security updates program for free”.) even if that somehow does happen, partly thanks to how inconvenient that’d make sharing and how companies often need a dozen people to access the same document, there will be somehow a way to share keys.
on that note (of my last sentence under the spoiler), you’ve also missed the point of https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/76949971/28679239 , which is not the first paragraph.
i would certainly say the average citizen uses HTTPS a lot
(context for onlookers: Let’s Encrypt is the most popular certificate authority, while the analogous to attestation is the concept of certificate authorities and not any one certificate authority.)
Let’s Encrypt was only founded in 2012 (and announced 2014) with general availability in 2016, while the current HTTPS standard with certificate authorities had been around since 2000. Passkeys, 2021. I think fairness is something the world needs.
I wouldn’t agree HTTPS was unproblematic before Let’s Encrypt existed, so I’m not sure where you are going with this. The average person doesn’t need a HTTPS cert issued, which I would say is comparable to the average citizen using a passkey. If only some spaces, e.g. enterprise, use them then it’s not a real problem. But that’s why it seems problematic to me once passkeys are pushed for general use.
I don’t think that I did, but my apologies if that is the case.
no, i was saying Let’s Encrypt solved HTTPS’s problems. before it HTTPS had the problems people claim passkeys’ attestation certificate chain has. it is very possible an authority equivalent to Let’s Encrypt will come about within the 16 years after 2021.
the average person doesn’t need an passkeys certificate issued either. using a passkey is the equivalent of HTTPS’s TLS packets, not making a new certificate.
So why shouldn’t we tell people to boycott the tech until then? Even then, that doesn’t solve the threat of a hardware attestation toggle.
I disagree.
because attestation the conspiracy to use attestation has not activated and i believe the damage is too small even if it did; i’ve argued how TPM reliance would be impossible for a very long time.
just like how Let’s Encrypt made acquiring certs (essentially a requirement for new websites now thanks to HTTPS, just like what you say passkey attestation is) extremely easy, the equivalent for passkeys would make new attestation providers quite easy, since the equivalent authority would be trusted
Why so? What about passkey attestation requires each user to issue a certificate?
I would argue that is different because an Https server doesn’t scale as much as a user login. Also, as someone that had to rely on things like “letsencryp” free certificates for personal servers, this is so annoying to setup and I hate that security needs a third party having to give me something for free and be able to stop giving it at any moment.
I do get the point on servers, is annoying but adds security to people visiting webs. but making this also a problem on the user login side is exactly why people hate this shit, and doesn’t add any security for the users.