If Stalin was against Bukharin he would’ve been against Deng. I see too many people glazing red social democracy. The DTOB is wearing the skin of the DTOP and people are falling for it.
If Stalin was against Bukharin he would’ve been against Deng. I see too many people glazing red social democracy. The DTOB is wearing the skin of the DTOP and people are falling for it.
Some thoughts on and surrounding the topic.
Your use of terms like “Dengism” reveals your complete lack of understanding of China’s socialist project. It’s nothing more than a pseudo-concept cobbled together by Westerners. Using “theories” like “What would Stalin have done if he were alive?” and applying the Soviet Union’s experience under specific historical conditions to China, with its completely different level of productivity decades later, is plainly ridiculous.
You reference Lenin’s Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, but reduce a rigorous scientific definition to a moral label. Let’s clarify how Lenin actually defined financial capital. Lenin clearly pointed out that financial capital is oligopolistic capital formed by the fusion of industrial monopoly capital and banking monopoly capital. Its core characteristic is extracting excess profits from peripheral countries through capital export and political hegemony, thereby dividing up the world. Take a close look at China’s overseas investment structure, ownership distribution, and the flow of surplus value. China exports state-led infrastructure construction and production capacity cooperation, mutually beneficial and win-win projects without attached political conditions. Equating participation in international trade and national development interests with imperialism shows you haven’t even grasped Lenin’s most basic work.
Let’s move on to basic theory. Socialism is a transitional stage towards communism. In this stage, the state still exists as an instrument of class rule, its core task being to control the economic high ground. Lenin clearly stated that without seizing banks, merging them into a central bank, nationalizing insurance, and controlling large-scale industry and commodity circulation, it is impossible to truly move towards socialism. These commanding heights primarily lie in finance, transportation, energy, heavy industry, and sectors driving macroeconomic development. As long as the state firmly controls these lifelines, it can determine the overall direction of the economy through resource allocation. Professor Cheng Enfu, has repeatedly emphasized in his discussion of the basic economic system of socialism that the dominant position of public ownership is not only reflected in its quantity but also in its control, influence, and leading role over the national economic lifeline. As long as these commanding heights are in hand, the market mechanism and the non-public sector become tools serving the transitional goals of socialism.
Marxist criticism of private ownership has never stemmed from moral fastidiousness but from a scientific analysis of material production. If you turn to Capital, Marx points out that the material basis of private ownership is the dispersion of production. As production becomes more complex, it inevitably moves towards concentration, that is, the socialization of production. When highly socialized production combines with private ownership, it triggers periodic economic crises. Lenin explained how competition transforms into monopoly, and the socialization of production reaches an unprecedented level, but ownership remains private.
Therefore, the prerequisite for dismantling private ownership is that the industry has already achieved full socialization. If the state forcibly takes over sectors that are not yet socialized and are dominated by small-scale producers, it is tantamount to inheriting a mess lacking nationwide infrastructure and technology. Lenin clearly explained that in countries where small-scale production is dominant, attempting to directly prohibit private ownership using the laws of a proletarian state is economic suicide.
The Soviet model you are clearly so fond of was essentially a wartime and preparedness economy established to prepare for war in Europe. This was a specific historical choice made by Stalin in response to the material reality of imperialist encirclement and the approaching war. It was effective in the short term for the concentrated development of heavy industry, helping the Soviet Union win the war. However, when historical conditions changed, necessitating a shift towards light industry and complex consumer goods, the contradiction predicted by Marx was encountered. State-mandated planning was simply incapable of handling the massive, dispersed, and rapidly changing demands of light industry. The result was a widespread shortage economy.
The black market and small producers spontaneously emerged to fill the gaps. However, the Soviet legal framework forced the state to suppress these small producers who spontaneously addressed systemic inefficiencies. This suppression, in turn, fostered widespread corruption and a privileged class. Because these economic activities were fundamentally incompatible with nationwide nationalized production, the shadow economy, forced underground, ultimately used its influence to attempt to overthrow the Soviet government. The Soviet Union’s failure stemmed precisely from its violation of economic laws, forcibly suppressing objectively existing material demands through administrative orders.
China’s development path fully conforms to the objective material laws of social evolution. Retaining secondary market economy elements is not a deviation from socialism, but rather a legitimate and necessary means of developing the economy in a stage where productive forces are not yet fully socialized.
In fact, China has already experienced the kind of complete socialization you’re seemingly fantasizing about, and paid an extremely heavy price. The system implemented during the Gang of Four’s rule attempted to ignore the objective material basis, forcibly cutting off the capitalist tail, eliminating all private plots and small enterprises, and trying to achieve pure public ownership overnight through administrative orders. Forcibly imposing production relations that are ahead of their stage onto backward productive forces will only create economic stagnation and nothing else. The later reform and opening up and the introduction of market mechanisms were not a betrayal of socialism, but a complete rectification of this utopian fanaticism detached from the material basis, a return to the correct track of production relations adapted to the actual productive forces.
True socialism does not rely on moral legislation to forcibly eliminate private enterprises, but rather on developing highly developed public ownership conditions, allowing private ownership to be naturally superseded in the historical process. When state-owned enterprises are technologically and efficiently advanced enough to achieve absolute overwhelming advantages in key areas, private enterprises will naturally exit the historical stage due to a lack of competitiveness. What hinders you from starting a private enterprise is not the law, but the material conditions of the real world.
I suggest you put aside your subjective assumptions and dogmatic philosophy, and go back to reread the basic theories.
As always, an excellent writeup, comrade. Thank you for your contributions. I hope one day I can grasp Marxism so well and convey it so eloquently.
I also want to thank you personally, comrade. I find your comments on socialism (especially with chinese characteristics) to be both enlightening and devastating when needed. I feel I understand the need of a secondary market economy in socialism already, but having comments like yours to highlight some specific examples is extremely useful.
Thank you. I’m glad you can gain something from my comments.
thank you for such a brilliant reply. i wish i had the capacity and the grasp on the topic to produce such a prose.
Thank you. It all comes with study I’m sure you’ll reach and far surpass my current level of understanding in time as long as you continue to study.
But private sector of the economy is growing, not shrinking. The phasing out won’t happen because capital is inherently expansive. The computational problem making the vast sea of inputs and outputs of light industry is made obsolete with modern computing / cybernetics. Also the inefficiencies weren’t just due to computation but the Sino Soviet split + imperial trad restrictions combined limiting the diversity of products and services possible to implement at scale. It’s 2026, I think the development is sufficient. Besides, believing that capitalism can develop you better than socialism is completely asinine.
Taking issue with private sector growth demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the setup of the economy and the point of said secondary sector. Emerging, underdeveloped industries naturally require flexible capital for trial and error, this is an objective law. As long as the state firmly controls the lifelines of finance, energy, communications, transportation, and heavy industry, (The commanding heights), private sector growth merely serves state-led socialist construction.
As for your belief that modern computing and cybernetics can solve the input-output problems of light industry, this technological utopianism is utterly naive. Even assuming unlimited computing power, computing was never the only bottleneck to the shortage of light industry in the Soviet Union. Research and development time, skilled labor, and supply chain infrastructure, among others, these material factors cannot be created by code. Faced with massive and rapidly changing consumer demand, the market itself is an extremely efficient distributed information processing mechanism. Ignoring the objective advantages of decentralized production and insisting on a unified planned directive is not materialism.
Your statement that development by 2026 is sufficient reveals how impoverished your understanding of the realities of China is. China is still in, and will remain for a time in, the primary stage of socialism. Per capita productivity, regional development imbalances, and the bottlenecks in core technologies clearly show us that productivity is far from reaching a level where market mechanisms can be completely abolished.
From the time of Marx himself Marxists have understood the importance of utilizing a secondary market and private capital to develop socialist construction. If you can only react with moral knee-jerk reactions to different modes of production, failing to understand their benefits, drawbacks, and the historical continuity leading to each superseding the next, then you’d be better off not calling yourself a Marxist.
You see China’s economy not as a mosaic of sectors with different levels of development, but as a monolith. This is not materialist analysis. The commanding heights are already socially owned, and the limit of marketization is centralization, when markets themselves become impedements to growth, rather than facilitators of it. Marx believed capitalism played a historically progressive role in preparing the basis of communism not based off of vibes, but instead looked at what markets do: develop small producers into centralized production, at which point they outlive the market phase and decay unless nationalized. Read Marx.
Marx and Lenin were “completely asinine”? Sure we can discuss if they were correct or not, but after that huge post correcting you, you retreat to this?