If Stalin was against Bukharin he would’ve been against Deng. I see too many people glazing red social democracy. The DTOB is wearing the skin of the DTOP and people are falling for it.

  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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    15 minutes ago

    What determines if a system is capitalist or socialist is not whether there is any private property at all, but which class controls the commanding heights of the economy and the state. Publicly owned industry in systems dominated by capitalists is not socialism, as it services the continued profit of capitalists and the accumulation of capital, be it through securing imperialism, preventing revolution, etc. Likewise, private ownership under socialism is not capitalism, as in China the marketized sector is the underdeveloped portion of the economy, and is used to take advantage of capital’s ability to stitch together disparate productive forces into what can better be used in planned economy.

    Marxism is not a moral dogma.

    Private property outlives its historical utility when it develops to national scale, and at this point it becomes beneficial to fold it into the public sector to expedite development. To fold in underdeveloped and disparate production to the planned economy is to strain the economic system by trying to account for all of the tiny producers. Marxists see the basis of markets as disparate, decentralized production, and the basis of planned economy in large, centralized production. Socialism is not a moral virtue to be implemented by decree, but instead a transitional status where markets are transformed gradually into planned economy as the productive forces develop.

    The people you decry as “Dengists” are just Marxist-Leninists. Deng Xiaoping did not invent this interpretation of Marx, it originated with Marx and was held by Lenin. The Stalin economy was progressive, and worked very well, but it was not an “ideal” economy from a Marxist perspective, and instead mostly resembled a siege economy. The enormous gains they made despite a siege economy shows how superior socialism is to capitalism, and how enormously flexible it is. The incredible and rapid transformation of China from a semi-feudal backwater to the indisputable world leader today in less than a century is a testement to what socialism in a more traditional sense can accomplish.

    Please study Marx and Engels. I will never drag Stalin through the mud, nor the Soviet Union, but you are not a materialist with this analysis. At best, you’re a moralist. You need to re-study the basis of scientific socialism and what it actually means to develop the productive forces.

  • 挂路灯人@lemmy.ml
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    15 hours ago

    I truly do understand that reading, and more importantly understanding and applying theory is a truly monumental task however you really should attempt it sometime.

    • YosemiteGromit@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      15 hours ago

      Where in theory does it say that finance capital is important for socialist construction? Lenin’s Imperialism the highest stage of capitalism describes finance capital as the first defining feature of imperialism. The second is the exporting of capital which is beginning to happen both in the form of employment of foreign proletarian (variable capital) and establishment of manufacturing industries abroad (constant capital).

      • 挂路灯人@lemmy.ml
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        14 hours ago

        Some thoughts on and surrounding the topic.

        Your use of terms like “Dengism” reveals your complete lack of understanding of China’s socialist project. It’s nothing more than a pseudo-concept cobbled together by Westerners. Using “theories” like “What would Stalin have done if he were alive?” and applying the Soviet Union’s experience under specific historical conditions to China, with its completely different level of productivity decades later, is plainly ridiculous.

        You reference Lenin’s Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, but reduce a rigorous scientific definition to a moral label. Let’s clarify how Lenin actually defined financial capital. Lenin clearly pointed out that financial capital is oligopolistic capital formed by the fusion of industrial monopoly capital and banking monopoly capital. Its core characteristic is extracting excess profits from peripheral countries through capital export and political hegemony, thereby dividing up the world. Take a close look at China’s overseas investment structure, ownership distribution, and the flow of surplus value. China exports state-led infrastructure construction and production capacity cooperation, mutually beneficial and win-win projects without attached political conditions. Equating participation in international trade and national development interests with imperialism shows you haven’t even grasped Lenin’s most basic work.

        Let’s move on to basic theory. Socialism is a transitional stage towards communism. In this stage, the state still exists as an instrument of class rule, its core task being to control the economic high ground. Lenin clearly stated that without seizing banks, merging them into a central bank, nationalizing insurance, and controlling large-scale industry and commodity circulation, it is impossible to truly move towards socialism. These commanding heights primarily lie in finance, transportation, energy, heavy industry, and sectors driving macroeconomic development. As long as the state firmly controls these lifelines, it can determine the overall direction of the economy through resource allocation. Professor Cheng Enfu, has repeatedly emphasized in his discussion of the basic economic system of socialism that the dominant position of public ownership is not only reflected in its quantity but also in its control, influence, and leading role over the national economic lifeline. As long as these commanding heights are in hand, the market mechanism and the non-public sector become tools serving the transitional goals of socialism.

        Marxist criticism of private ownership has never stemmed from moral fastidiousness but from a scientific analysis of material production. If you turn to Capital, Marx points out that the material basis of private ownership is the dispersion of production. As production becomes more complex, it inevitably moves towards concentration, that is, the socialization of production. When highly socialized production combines with private ownership, it triggers periodic economic crises. Lenin explained how competition transforms into monopoly, and the socialization of production reaches an unprecedented level, but ownership remains private.

        Therefore, the prerequisite for dismantling private ownership is that the industry has already achieved full socialization. If the state forcibly takes over sectors that are not yet socialized and are dominated by small-scale producers, it is tantamount to inheriting a mess lacking nationwide infrastructure and technology. Lenin clearly explained that in countries where small-scale production is dominant, attempting to directly prohibit private ownership using the laws of a proletarian state is economic suicide.

        The Soviet model you are clearly so fond of was essentially a wartime and preparedness economy established to prepare for war in Europe. This was a specific historical choice made by Stalin in response to the material reality of imperialist encirclement and the approaching war. It was effective in the short term for the concentrated development of heavy industry, helping the Soviet Union win the war. However, when historical conditions changed, necessitating a shift towards light industry and complex consumer goods, the contradiction predicted by Marx was encountered. State-mandated planning was simply incapable of handling the massive, dispersed, and rapidly changing demands of light industry. The result was a widespread shortage economy.

        The black market and small producers spontaneously emerged to fill the gaps. However, the Soviet legal framework forced the state to suppress these small producers who spontaneously addressed systemic inefficiencies. This suppression, in turn, fostered widespread corruption and a privileged class. Because these economic activities were fundamentally incompatible with nationwide nationalized production, the shadow economy, forced underground, ultimately used its influence to attempt to overthrow the Soviet government. The Soviet Union’s failure stemmed precisely from its violation of economic laws, forcibly suppressing objectively existing material demands through administrative orders.

        China’s development path fully conforms to the objective material laws of social evolution. Retaining secondary market economy elements is not a deviation from socialism, but rather a legitimate and necessary means of developing the economy in a stage where productive forces are not yet fully socialized.

        In fact, China has already experienced the kind of complete socialization you’re seemingly fantasizing about, and paid an extremely heavy price. The system implemented during the Gang of Four’s rule attempted to ignore the objective material basis, forcibly cutting off the capitalist tail, eliminating all private plots and small enterprises, and trying to achieve pure public ownership overnight through administrative orders. Forcibly imposing production relations that are ahead of their stage onto backward productive forces will only create economic stagnation and nothing else. The later reform and opening up and the introduction of market mechanisms were not a betrayal of socialism, but a complete rectification of this utopian fanaticism detached from the material basis, a return to the correct track of production relations adapted to the actual productive forces.

        True socialism does not rely on moral legislation to forcibly eliminate private enterprises, but rather on developing highly developed public ownership conditions, allowing private ownership to be naturally superseded in the historical process. When state-owned enterprises are technologically and efficiently advanced enough to achieve absolute overwhelming advantages in key areas, private enterprises will naturally exit the historical stage due to a lack of competitiveness. What hinders you from starting a private enterprise is not the law, but the material conditions of the real world.

        I suggest you put aside your subjective assumptions and dogmatic philosophy, and go back to reread the basic theories.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          44 minutes ago

          As always, an excellent writeup, comrade. Thank you for your contributions. I hope one day I can grasp Marxism so well and convey it so eloquently.

        • Narri N. (they/them)@lemmy.ml
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          4 hours ago

          I also want to thank you personally, comrade. I find your comments on socialism (especially with chinese characteristics) to be both enlightening and devastating when needed. I feel I understand the need of a secondary market economy in socialism already, but having comments like yours to highlight some specific examples is extremely useful.

        • ghost_laptop@lemmy.mlM
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          12 hours ago

          thank you for such a brilliant reply. i wish i had the capacity and the grasp on the topic to produce such a prose.

          • 挂路灯人@lemmy.ml
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            10 hours ago

            Thank you. It all comes with study I’m sure you’ll reach and far surpass my current level of understanding in time as long as you continue to study.

        • YosemiteGromit@lemmygrad.mlOP
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          7 hours ago

          But private sector of the economy is growing, not shrinking. The phasing out won’t happen because capital is inherently expansive. The computational problem making the vast sea of inputs and outputs of light industry is made obsolete with modern computing / cybernetics. Also the inefficiencies weren’t just due to computation but the Sino Soviet split + imperial trad restrictions combined limiting the diversity of products and services possible to implement at scale. It’s 2026, I think the development is sufficient. Besides, believing that capitalism can develop you better than socialism is completely asinine.

          • 挂路灯人@lemmy.ml
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            1 hour ago

            Taking issue with private sector growth demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the setup of the economy and the point of said secondary sector. Emerging, underdeveloped industries naturally require flexible capital for trial and error, this is an objective law. As long as the state firmly controls the lifelines of finance, energy, communications, transportation, and heavy industry, (The commanding heights), private sector growth merely serves state-led socialist construction.

            As for your belief that modern computing and cybernetics can solve the input-output problems of light industry, this technological utopianism is utterly naive. Even assuming unlimited computing power, computing was never the only bottleneck to the shortage of light industry in the Soviet Union. Research and development time, skilled labor, and supply chain infrastructure, among others, these material factors cannot be created by code. Faced with massive and rapidly changing consumer demand, the market itself is an extremely efficient distributed information processing mechanism. Ignoring the objective advantages of decentralized production and insisting on a unified planned directive is not materialism.

            Your statement that development by 2026 is sufficient reveals how impoverished your understanding of the realities of China is. China is still in, and will remain for a time in, the primary stage of socialism. Per capita productivity, regional development imbalances, and the bottlenecks in core technologies clearly show us that productivity is far from reaching a level where market mechanisms can be completely abolished.

            From the time of Marx himself Marxists have understood the importance of utilizing a secondary market and private capital to develop socialist construction. If you can only react with moral knee-jerk reactions to different modes of production, failing to understand their benefits, drawbacks, and the historical continuity leading to each superseding the next, then you’d be better off not calling yourself a Marxist.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            40 minutes ago

            You see China’s economy not as a mosaic of sectors with different levels of development, but as a monolith. This is not materialist analysis. The commanding heights are already socially owned, and the limit of marketization is centralization, when markets themselves become impedements to growth, rather than facilitators of it. Marx believed capitalism played a historically progressive role in preparing the basis of communism not based off of vibes, but instead looked at what markets do: develop small producers into centralized production, at which point they outlive the market phase and decay unless nationalized. Read Marx.

          • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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            6 hours ago

            Marx and Lenin were “completely asinine”? Sure we can discuss if they were correct or not, but after that huge post correcting you, you retreat to this?

      • ghost_laptop@lemmy.mlM
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        15 hours ago

        how can finance capital be created in the hands of the proletariat? you are proposing an oxymoron. either china was never a dictatorship of the proletariat and it is indeed finance capital, or china was a dictatorship of the proletariat and it is not finance capital. you are parroting cia talking points about soviet imperialism but applied to china. is that also your position? the soviet union participated in the export of finance capital?

  • ghost_laptop@lemmy.mlM
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    15 hours ago

    you lack understanding of dialectical materialism and are thinking in eternal absolutes. marxists don’t oppose or support any one thing in particular as inherently evil or counter revolutionary. and in the context of deng it certainly should be supported. you cannot know what stalin would have thought, and even if he did does not mean he was right, for all the good things he did there is always the chance of error. the ussr fell, but china is still standing and upholding tens of millions of working class people.

    The proportion of planning to market forces is not the essential difference between socialism and capitalism. A planned economy is not equivalent to socialism, because there is planning under capitalism too; a market economy is not capitalism, because there are markets under socialism too. Planning and market forces are both means of controlling economic activity. The essence of socialism is liberation and development of the productive forces, elimination of exploitation and polarization, and the ultimate achievement of prosperity for all. This concept must be made clear to the people. Are securities and the stock market good or bad? Do they entail any dangers? Are they peculiar to capitalism? Can socialism make use of them? We allow people to reserve their judgement, but we must try these things out. If, after one or two years of experimentation, they prove feasible, we can expand them. Otherwise, we can put a stop to them and be done with it. We can stop them all at once or gradually, totally or partially. What is there to be afraid of? So long as we keep this attitude, everything will be all right, and we shall not make any major mistakes. In short, if we want socialism to achieve superiority over capitalism, we should not hesitate to draw on the achievements of all cultures and to learn from other countries, including the developed capitalist countries, all advanced methods of operation and techniques of management that reflect the laws governing modern socialized production.

    — Deng Xiaoping, 1992, Excerpts from Talks Given in Wuchang, Shenzhen, Zhuhai and Shanghai.

    To attempt to answer yes or no to the question whether any particular means of struggle should be used, without making a detailed examination of the concrete situation of the given movement at the given stage of its development, means completely to abandon the Marxist position.

    — V.I. Lenin, Guerrilla Warfare (1906)

  • woodenghost [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    13 hours ago

    I know all the arguments that the comments in here will reply to OP already and mostly agree. Of course building socialism is a long process. Of course there’s dialectics. But I would like to see more nuance in the daily reporting.

    We all support the war of Iran and the axis of resistance against US imperialism, right? But no war ever goes smoothly. If there is a setback or a heavy blow dealt by the enemy, we don’t sugar coat it. We discuss it, analyze the implications.

    Similarly, we should support China. But if we accept, that China is socialist, not yet communist, then that means by definition, that the class war within China is still going on. Just as it continued in the Soviet Union after the revolution and was ultimately lost from within (under pressure, of course, but still).

    So inevitably, I wonder, how is the class war inside China going? We hear about the many positive achievements every day. But is it all one glorious victory after another? Not one little setback? No partial retreat ever? Only one brilliant strategic master strok after another? What’s the most contested front?

    In 2020, there were about double the number of billionaires in China compared to today (over 1000, at one point). Apparently it got so bad, that decisive action became necessary. What prevent earlier action? Then, after the crackdowns, this number dropped to about 400. Just since last year alone, the number has risen again by about 20% to over 500 again. Isn’t that a little setback? How did it happen? Will the number continue to rise? They have limited power now, but I’m sure they strive for more.

    If China is socialist, there must be struggle, there must be classes, there must be enemies of the proletariat within China. Who exactly are our enemies inside China? How do they fight? I want names. Not vague gestures towards theory.

    As in the Soviet Union, there must be revisionist and anti-revisionist streams in the party. Who’s got the upper hand at what time and on what issue? These questions are never discussed. Instead, people pretend China is just one unified block. That’s racist, anti-dialectical and idealist.

    I want trustworthy news with a Marxist class analysis about the struggle within China or all the purely positive ones will be suspect of painting an incomplete picture.

    I get, that to the outside, we have to be united in our support due to relentless imperialist anti-China propaganda. But here, amongst ourselves, we can be what we are: materialists.