“I think you fail to notice that i also consider the vast majority of “liberal democracies” to be decaying into fascism already. Your insinuations of my intentions are frivolous.”
I do recognise that, a very rare occurence in the sea of Russophobic warmongering where there o so democratic neighbours can do no wrong despite being awful.
And I want to make sure I don’t like Putin and his policies.
I do support the lesser evil and the enemy of my enemy.
There has been done enough to almost risk WW3 where Europe mainly suffers and the intigators, the US as usual profits.
This bcs people don’t know the facts and fail to see western media is just as controlled and propagandised.
I’m willing to admit that much or even all I’ve heard about Russia is purely propaganda - but the alternative seems to be taking Russia at its word, and that would mean swallowing their own propaganda. The truth must lie somewhere in the middle, but where that is is hard to say.
To be clear, I don’t think the “Russia invaded poor peaceful Ukraine for fun” narrative is accurate. However, I don’t see any convincing alternatives to that. The “denazification” idea coming from Russia seems flimsy at best. There does certainly seem to be a large Nazi presence in Ukraine. But, unless they seem to be ramping up towards a pseudo fourth reich, that doesn’t seem to me to be a justification for a full-on invasion. Sanctions? Blockading? Defensive alliances with the rest of Europe? Those would seem reasonable.
But, yeah, there’s obviously a gap in my knowledge regarding this. I’m just not convinced yet that the gap contains justified excuses for Russia’s actions.
Bingo, never forget Putin is ex-KGB/FSB, the master of propaganda. Many people seem to fall easily for russia and US propaganda. This war has nothing to do with massive CSTO, NATO, NAZI , LGBTQ, biolabs and etc. Those are propaganda for sheeps. To make it seem complicated. It is the same strategy, the WMDs excuses US used to invade Iraq. We hate US for doing that, It is the same reason we hate russia for doing the same, unless one is a hypocrite.
Russia have hardly any troops along border with NATO members. Russia is already surrounded with nuclear powers. No nuclear power will nuke a neighbour as the radiation will spread to their own country. Russia have nukes right next to NATO members in kaliningard. Russia made Belarus a nuclear sponge.
The truth is more likely simple and practical, more about getting warm water ports and more lands and imperialism but it hard to sell facist ideas like that to the people. Putin talked about soviet empire during interview with carlson. Russia got the warm water port from Crimea but most of the water supply to crimea comes from Ukraine. This invasion is to secure that water supply and probably even to link up with Transnistria. Any other reason given is just pure propaganda to build support, to demonize the enemy and sell the need for invasion to sheeps. Like the WMDs in iraq.
Also note NATO does not expand it is based on membership, one way to identify russia talking point propaganda is someone using the word “expansion” or “pushing expansion” when talking about bad NATO. In geopolitics expansion usually means invasion. Potential NATO member, apply for membership and are accepted by vote. Before the war there was only minority public support inside ukraine for ukraine joining NATO, it changed after the war. Ukraine even said they won’t apply to NATO but russia didn’t leave Ukraine lands. It was about the lands not NATO.
Putin : “I am absolutely convinced that Ukraine will not shy away from the processes of expanding interaction with NATO and the Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO; there is the Ukraine-NATO Council. At the end of the day the decision is to be taken by NATO and Ukraine. It is a matter for those two partners.” http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/21598
You sound like a reasonable person and don’t resort to insults like most other ones disagreing with we.
I usually quit when they call me a nazi or the opposite, a tankie.
You seem willing to listen and learn.
There is a very strong nazi presence in ukraine, not just the AZOV’s.
An estimated 30% and they have a great influence.
The reason Russia invaded was bcs they had no other choice, it was an existential threat.
There was a textbook paid and organised western coup, not a revolution.
The parts of ukraine (40%) with ethnic Russians didn’t want to live under their rule and be discriminated or even ethnic cleansed.
They resisted.
The east succeeded bcs close to Russia and they got weapons while in the south protests got brutally beaten down, culminating in the deliberate burning of the union building killing 47 people by the armed fascist thugs who were sent there from Lviv.
Russia didn’t have many demands before, mostly that they not be in NATO and rights for the ethnic Russians.
Letting the Banderite government (chosen by the US as proven by the Nuland-Pyatt call) take all Ukraine would simply be indefensible since nukes in ukraine would be right next to Moscow.
Don’t forget that just before the US unilaterally broke the missile treaties and put them in Romania. They are always threatening them, always have.
There have been plenty of warning from Russia, red lines are just that. NATO can not expand further than that. Yet NATO kept pushing.
Another reason was the fascists were going to finally launch their ethnic cleansing offensive.
They admittedly broke the Minsk accords (even Merkel said it was just to buy time), eventually had the largest army in Europe with western help and even by the reports of the OCSE they massively (98%) violated the ceasefire with the eastern Donetsk/Lugansk resitance.
So Russia intervened.
For all I’m saying there is proof to back it up.
Even from western sources.
I hope you look it up.
You’ve given me a hell of a lot to think about, dude. I heard someone say recently, “why would the same media that lies about Gaza tell the truth about Ukraine?” And the seed had been planted. But, like I said earlier, I hadn’t seen any contrary opinions other than obvious bloodthirsty fascists who just have no sympathy for Ukraine’s citizens and like the idea of massive conflict.
If the picture you paint is true - that the West had essentially been building a military presence in Eastern Europe to deliberately threaten Russia, and that Eastern Ukraine genuinely considered themselves part of Russia - then I find it had to argue with what happened.
But, i have to admit, something is making it hard for me to truly accept. Somehow it’s harder to accept than accepting the truth that Israel is genociding Palestinians.
I’ll have to do some thinking and research. Thanks for putting up with me.
Never forget, nothing is a threat to moscovite russia, they have the largest nuclear arsenal, largest amount of land in the world to shelter during a nuclear attack. Measure percentage of russia border with NATO members vs total border of russia before russia invaded Ukraine. it is tiny. Russia did nothing when Finland Sweden joined NATO.
Unlike russia, other countries have genuine security concerns about russia expansionism and nukes.
Don’t forget to research which country russian puppet, Viktor Yanukovych.
Don’t forget russia has nukes in kalinigard and belarus.
Don’t forget to research on all the coup russia tried to carry out inside Ukraine.
Don’t forget to research about putin’s Wagner group.
Thanks for the civil conversation, this gives me hope.
Nice that some people have an open mind and are willing to be sceptical, look up sources and learn without blindly accepting what their side tells them.
Here’s some background:
The Ukraine fascist problem goes back all the way to WW2.
Even before it was finished US/UK started to save nazis to use them later against the Soviets.
After it was clear they would win the war after the battle of Stalingrad 1943.
This has been largely swept under the carpet.
Most of them in the west got rehabilitated and even kept in important positions. Not in the least in NATO.
And are we the good guys when we had no trouble accepting fully fascist regimes in NATO?
Spain, Portugal, Greece and more.
Everyone more or less knows about Project Paperclip to use nazi scientist.
Which is despicable but in some way understandable.
But it goes much further than that.
Here is a good read on the ratlines that were established.
And why would they save thousands of the worst Ukrainian SS Galicia troops and evacuate them to England and later Canada? The results and the ideology of their offspring is still strong.
Also check out the rest of that sub, it will surely debunk the ‘no nazis in Ukraine’ mantra. Declassified document showing CIA supporting post war fascists in Ukraine.
“I think you fail to notice that i also consider the vast majority of “liberal democracies” to be decaying into fascism already. Your insinuations of my intentions are frivolous.”
I do recognise that, a very rare occurence in the sea of Russophobic warmongering where there o so democratic neighbours can do no wrong despite being awful.
And I want to make sure I don’t like Putin and his policies.
I do support the lesser evil and the enemy of my enemy.
There has been done enough to almost risk WW3 where Europe mainly suffers and the intigators, the US as usual profits.
This bcs people don’t know the facts and fail to see western media is just as controlled and propagandised.
I’m willing to admit that much or even all I’ve heard about Russia is purely propaganda - but the alternative seems to be taking Russia at its word, and that would mean swallowing their own propaganda. The truth must lie somewhere in the middle, but where that is is hard to say.
To be clear, I don’t think the “Russia invaded poor peaceful Ukraine for fun” narrative is accurate. However, I don’t see any convincing alternatives to that. The “denazification” idea coming from Russia seems flimsy at best. There does certainly seem to be a large Nazi presence in Ukraine. But, unless they seem to be ramping up towards a pseudo fourth reich, that doesn’t seem to me to be a justification for a full-on invasion. Sanctions? Blockading? Defensive alliances with the rest of Europe? Those would seem reasonable.
But, yeah, there’s obviously a gap in my knowledge regarding this. I’m just not convinced yet that the gap contains justified excuses for Russia’s actions.
Bingo, never forget Putin is ex-KGB/FSB, the master of propaganda. Many people seem to fall easily for russia and US propaganda. This war has nothing to do with massive CSTO, NATO, NAZI , LGBTQ, biolabs and etc. Those are propaganda for sheeps. To make it seem complicated. It is the same strategy, the WMDs excuses US used to invade Iraq. We hate US for doing that, It is the same reason we hate russia for doing the same, unless one is a hypocrite.
Russia have hardly any troops along border with NATO members. Russia is already surrounded with nuclear powers. No nuclear power will nuke a neighbour as the radiation will spread to their own country. Russia have nukes right next to NATO members in kaliningard. Russia made Belarus a nuclear sponge.
The truth is more likely simple and practical, more about getting warm water ports and more lands and imperialism but it hard to sell facist ideas like that to the people. Putin talked about soviet empire during interview with carlson. Russia got the warm water port from Crimea but most of the water supply to crimea comes from Ukraine. This invasion is to secure that water supply and probably even to link up with Transnistria. Any other reason given is just pure propaganda to build support, to demonize the enemy and sell the need for invasion to sheeps. Like the WMDs in iraq.
Also note NATO does not expand it is based on membership, one way to identify russia talking point propaganda is someone using the word “expansion” or “pushing expansion” when talking about bad NATO. In geopolitics expansion usually means invasion. Potential NATO member, apply for membership and are accepted by vote. Before the war there was only minority public support inside ukraine for ukraine joining NATO, it changed after the war. Ukraine even said they won’t apply to NATO but russia didn’t leave Ukraine lands. It was about the lands not NATO.
Putin : “I am absolutely convinced that Ukraine will not shy away from the processes of expanding interaction with NATO and the Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO; there is the Ukraine-NATO Council. At the end of the day the decision is to be taken by NATO and Ukraine. It is a matter for those two partners.” http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/21598
You sound like a reasonable person and don’t resort to insults like most other ones disagreing with we.
I usually quit when they call me a nazi or the opposite, a tankie.
You seem willing to listen and learn.
There is a very strong nazi presence in ukraine, not just the AZOV’s.
An estimated 30% and they have a great influence.
The reason Russia invaded was bcs they had no other choice, it was an existential threat.
There was a textbook paid and organised western coup, not a revolution.
The parts of ukraine (40%) with ethnic Russians didn’t want to live under their rule and be discriminated or even ethnic cleansed.
They resisted.
The east succeeded bcs close to Russia and they got weapons while in the south protests got brutally beaten down, culminating in the deliberate burning of the union building killing 47 people by the armed fascist thugs who were sent there from Lviv.
Russia didn’t have many demands before, mostly that they not be in NATO and rights for the ethnic Russians.
Letting the Banderite government (chosen by the US as proven by the Nuland-Pyatt call) take all Ukraine would simply be indefensible since nukes in ukraine would be right next to Moscow.
Don’t forget that just before the US unilaterally broke the missile treaties and put them in Romania. They are always threatening them, always have.
There have been plenty of warning from Russia, red lines are just that. NATO can not expand further than that. Yet NATO kept pushing.
Another reason was the fascists were going to finally launch their ethnic cleansing offensive.
They admittedly broke the Minsk accords (even Merkel said it was just to buy time), eventually had the largest army in Europe with western help and even by the reports of the OCSE they massively (98%) violated the ceasefire with the eastern Donetsk/Lugansk resitance.
So Russia intervened.
For all I’m saying there is proof to back it up.
Even from western sources.
I hope you look it up.
You’ve given me a hell of a lot to think about, dude. I heard someone say recently, “why would the same media that lies about Gaza tell the truth about Ukraine?” And the seed had been planted. But, like I said earlier, I hadn’t seen any contrary opinions other than obvious bloodthirsty fascists who just have no sympathy for Ukraine’s citizens and like the idea of massive conflict.
If the picture you paint is true - that the West had essentially been building a military presence in Eastern Europe to deliberately threaten Russia, and that Eastern Ukraine genuinely considered themselves part of Russia - then I find it had to argue with what happened.
But, i have to admit, something is making it hard for me to truly accept. Somehow it’s harder to accept than accepting the truth that Israel is genociding Palestinians.
I’ll have to do some thinking and research. Thanks for putting up with me.
Never forget, nothing is a threat to moscovite russia, they have the largest nuclear arsenal, largest amount of land in the world to shelter during a nuclear attack. Measure percentage of russia border with NATO members vs total border of russia before russia invaded Ukraine. it is tiny. Russia did nothing when Finland Sweden joined NATO.
Unlike russia, other countries have genuine security concerns about russia expansionism and nukes.
Don’t forget to research which country russian puppet, Viktor Yanukovych.
Don’t forget russia has nukes in kalinigard and belarus.
Don’t forget to research on all the coup russia tried to carry out inside Ukraine.
Don’t forget to research about putin’s Wagner group.
Thanks for the civil conversation, this gives me hope.
Nice that some people have an open mind and are willing to be sceptical, look up sources and learn without blindly accepting what their side tells them.
Here’s some background:
The Ukraine fascist problem goes back all the way to WW2.
Even before it was finished US/UK started to save nazis to use them later against the Soviets.
After it was clear they would win the war after the battle of Stalingrad 1943.
This has been largely swept under the carpet.
Most of them in the west got rehabilitated and even kept in important positions. Not in the least in NATO.
And are we the good guys when we had no trouble accepting fully fascist regimes in NATO?
Spain, Portugal, Greece and more.
Everyone more or less knows about Project Paperclip to use nazi scientist.
Which is despicable but in some way understandable.
But it goes much further than that.
Here is a good read on the ratlines that were established.
And why would they save thousands of the worst Ukrainian SS Galicia troops and evacuate them to England and later Canada?
The results and the ideology of their offspring is still strong.
Also check out the rest of that sub, it will surely debunk the ‘no nazis in Ukraine’ mantra.
Declassified document showing CIA supporting post war fascists in Ukraine.
And those efforts kept going leading to the coup.
Always ready to answer questions.
Have a nice day.
The truth isn’t in the middle.
The truth is in science.