Human rights issues are not political. The attempt by the right to cast them as political serves to suppress discussion and progress by making the very act of discussing these things at all be seen as taboo. We can’t let that happen.

That point aside, libre software is pretty much inherently political.

Yes exactly. We can and should do both.

But it seems most people here would prefer the false dichotomy that implies we can only do one.

People want communism to be a panacea and it’s simply not. Until we understand that as a group, we will never see lasting change.

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It seems you are all getting caught in a false dichotomy of thinking that it’s not possible to oppose capitalism and also hold individuals liable for their actions. I don’t understand this.

To me this is the equivalent of saying that Nazis were just following orders. That they had no choice in that matter.

Nazism didn’t “cause” the holocaust. Hitler and the people of Germany did. Nazism was a product of a social illness which has still not been cured. We defeated the Nazis but we didn’t cure the social illness that led to it so look what we have again (Nazis).

Maybe a better word is “force”. As in capitalism does not “force” harm.

Implying that capitalism forces harm excuses the individuals who are truly causing the harm.

You mention “perfect, uncorrupted” communism and this is what I want but I don’t see a reality in which we obtain that without first accepting that “perfect, uncorrupted” communism is NEVER what we get without first curing social issues.

Would I rather have a fucked up communism than fucked up capitalism? Yeah but I believe fascism can accompany either and I would prefer to deal with that first and foremost.

I too want to live in an ideal communist society but I won’t lie to myself and pretend we can get there without social change. That change starts with holding individuals accountable for their crimes against humanity.

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STOP YOUR WRONGTHINK NOW!

You are making things too complicated. We just need a different ism bro. Just one more isn bro I promise.

Things are so simple and you are ruining the vibes with your critical thinking.

You think greed is a problem and we need to address social problems before we can fix things? Sounds like some liberal nonsense.

Read Einstein bro, he knows everything because he’s basically like Rick from Rick and Morty but real and the best author of communism there is.

If you don’t just meme the meme then you are capitalism you dipshit dumfuck.

/s

Just a TLDR of the replies you are going to get here (but far less GIFs).

Sitting here waiting for a single counter argument to any of my statements but only getting insults directed at straw men.

If I’m such a dumb fuck then why can’t anyone counter my arguments?

If you have a point to make (or any independent thoughts to share) then please attempt to make it.

I’m open to being corrected but it seems like I’m already correct and have just hurt people’s ego.

I think I agree. It doesn’t seem like we can have any nuanced discussion amongst the hive mind meme lords here though.

I don’t support capitalism in any way shape or form. It only can lead to the situation were in now.

But it seems we are expected to believe in communism as some kind of holy untouchable grail that will solve all of societies woes. It’s heresy to be critical of anyone who dangles the communism carrot in front of us. We must blindly consume the promises of charlatans.

Anyone one who thinks critically is a “dumbass” “liberal” who hasn’t… checks notes read Einstein.

Such eloquent prose.

The brilliance of your counter arguments are truly stunning.

I now can only agree that I am a dumb fuck because “leeeeerooooyyyyjeeeenkins” and his sock puppet account “booty” have irrevocably proven that my argument is invalid due to unstated reasons beyond human comprehension.

If only I had be so clever as to concoct such insults as “dipshit” and “dumbass” I might have prevailed, and my pride could still be salvaged.

Alas I am a ruined by way of immaculate reason.

I agree, my argument is just that we need to understand and address the core social problems in order to better understand how to construct political solutions than actually work.

I would argue that it’s possible to murder someone through inaction.

I don’t think every unnatural death can be traced to a single individual but it can almost always be traced to the group that individual is part of. The collective individual actions of that group lead to the death of the individual.

For example someone sleeping on the street who dies of exposure. The cold killed them but the inaction of the group who was able to prevent that death can be held to blame.

My point though is that capitalism didn’t kill them. They could have survived within capitalism if the group had chosen to extend aid to that individual.

To be clear, I’m not saying we should place blame on capitalism, but we can’t stop there. We have to understand the root cause of the problem which is social more than political IMO.

I don’t have a good answer on how to deal with these people specifically. There are too many potential variables to really make a conclusive statement about this. It depends so much on the social structures we’re acting within.

i will say I don’t think killing is inherently anti-social. If the death of an individual who is working against the wellbeing of the community is the only way to improve the health of the community then I would not consider causing their death to be anti-social.

For a “spherical cows in a vacuum” argument, I would say that if there is a community locked in a box where no one is free to come and go, and a member of that community is engaging in rape or murder, I would support them being killed. There is obviously a whole world of discussion to just be had on this example and I’m over simplifying.

The specifics are more of a moral/ethical problem than a political/social problem imo.

We might be getting caught up in the semantics of the word “cause”.

Capitalism sets up a system that puts people in these situations undoubtedly. It also encourages and rewards violent behaviour.

I would like to believe that in a better society, gang violence would significantly decrease. It seems to be driven and encouraged by socioeconomic factors outside of the control of the gang members.

For every person growing up in poor socioeconomic conditions who makes the conscious choice to become a gang member, there are many more who don’t and instead decide to lift their communities.

We can’t use living under capitalism as an excuse to act anti-socially. We must hold individuals accountable for their individual actions. We must practice mutual aid RIGHT NOW if we have any hope of a future. Political / economic system aside.

No idea has ever forced someone’s hand to pull a trigger or evict a single mother. Every single bad thing that is done comes down to an individual making a decision to harm another. It’s always possible to choose not to harm.

Capitalism is a mind virus that leads to very real harm, but it in and of itself does not directly cause that harm. Capitalism encourages but does not force people to be bad. In this same way socialism encourages but does not force someone to be good.

It’s simply not possible to make a logical argument that capitalism “causes” suffering without admitting that political ideology can in and of itself be a cause for anything. To admit that capitalism “causes” suffering all on its own is to admit that socialism can also “cause” suffering as well. I’m not willing to admit that there is any inherent death toll associated with building a better world for our children (aside of course from the bloody reality of revolution itself).

That being said, even in a society where everyone’s core needs are met we still see bad actors.

Bees are a communal insect. A macro-organism that practices mutual aid. Even in a hive where the bees have everything they could possibly want, there are still some bees that don’t share, who don’t practice mutual aid. They choose instead to steal from their own hive or other hives. These bees are swiftly kicked out of the group or often killed.

We have seen that the ideals of communism and socialism, Marxist thought in general, can be used to shield bad actors from their truly anti-social actions. We cannot allow or condone this.

When we put so much faith in a political system, we often lose sight of the fact that we must hold individuals accountable for their choices regardless of their purported political ideologies. We lose sight of the fact that mutual aid is the only way forward as a species and that saying the right words can not replace taking the right action.

A killer is a killer and a thief is a thief. Anti-social behaviour is the core problem and until we address that, any attempt at a better wold with surely fail.

Congrats, you are the actual cringiest person I have encountered on the fediverse.

Every comment you post just projects harder that you are comically insecure and immature.

It’s honestly sad and confusing to see behaviour like this out of someone who claims to be a leftist but I suppose you may be on the path to becoming the anti-social bad actor I’m warning about.

I’m sitting here trying to have an actual political discussion but instead laughing at how it feels like I’m arguing with an LLM trained exclusively on 4chan posts and brain rot Rick & Morty memes.

It’s ok to be wrong sometimes. I used to think the same way you do but then I decided to read actual theory and educate myself on the nuances of leftist thought.

What is not ok is to drag down well meaning conversation because it makes you feel insecure.

I’m not going to block you because I have hope that you may grow as a person and some day have some meaningful things to add to discussions of this nature but I’m completely done entertaining this “conversation”.

Feel free to continue shit posting meme lord gifs in an effort to feel like you have things to say but I’m out.

Holy fucking fuck what is wrong with you lmao?

When your insult comes as a reply to an argument provided without a counter argument it’s taken as ad hominem.

If you actually had a counter argument, the insult would just be regular cringe.

It’s clear you have nothing to add to this conversation besides vitriol.

The projection here is palpable.

I won’t engage in your straw man argument but to be absolutely clear, I am not defending capitalism in any way shape or form. There is not a single cell in my body that endorses this shit.

That being said, I’m not content with blaming a political system. I want to hold individuals accountable for their actions. I want bad actors eliminated from society regardless of their purported political beliefs.

Bad actors exist in every form of social and political structures. It is absolutely critical that these anti-social individuals are ousted from the group.

You are oversimplifying things because it’s easier than understanding the big picture. It’s easy to think that political ideologies can fix things. They can’t without a deeper understanding of human/animal group behaviour.

Einstein had some interesting things to say but I would suggest reading Kropotkin if you want to understand more about the true nature of social structures and the relationship between the individual and the group.

Read a fucking book comrade.

You should read some theory before you go around calling people liberals who are clearly more educated on leftist thought than you are.

This is seriously some 4chan levels of cringe. Should have read your meme lord user name before engaging in this discussion.

Idk who you think you are arguing with but it’s clearly not me haha.