Most of the time I hear advice that a regular 9 to 5 job or other schedule of being an employee is making us a slave or at least depreving us from our time by keep us busy enough to not be able to do anything else. But what are other options that allow both enough time to spend on a personal life and make a good living? Most of the time, owning a business eats more time than being an employee. This is maybe a discussion about work life balance, or even being with or against the anti work movement.
I also refuse the idea that tells me to be absolutely frugal. Yes, I live bellow my means, but I also spen d money on my hobbies and what brings joy and meaning to my life. I also save up some money for investment but investing is the hard part when our stock market is too small.
The question is serious. What are the other options or other insight in the situation and its alternatives.
Question is open ended and you can add in more point of views.
Nobody will pay you unless you are creating surplus value to them. If you have the means to sell your own thing, you are the one enjoying this value.
You might as well spend more hours running your own business. The way I see it is that it is mostly mind-numbing. Between the extra hours in commute, the fatigue, and the eventual drop in productivity, the biggest damage is to your own intellect, creativity and health.
Arguably you could be better off if you invest this time and energy to yourself. But this is still not fair. If you don’t have the resources, then you can only make a living by selling your own energy to somebody else. And your business might also fail, so you go bankrupt.
I really believe the solution to all this is unions. All the high-paying jobs have some union protection set up, hence they enjoy living wages and perks. It is only plain workers that haven’t any.
I wish I could give you a magic trick but the reality is that under capitalism, if you’re not lucky enough to be born into riches or have powerful connections, then you’re pretty much stuck being a wage slave. There is no real alternative to selling someone your labor either for a 9-5 work or multiple part times etc. The only real way out of this is systemic change.
I work 7-4 as an IT analyst and it’s easy money. I get paid more than I did in healthcare and put in about half as much effort. Also, I get to work from home.
Owning my own business would be much, much more work. No thanks. Find a 9-5 you can exploit.
This is just really highly subjective. The US is a huge outlier since your social safety net sucks ass. Your life literally depends of your employer giving you health insurance but the rest of the world is also not that much better.
With the end of the udssr capitalism lost all motivation to proof that it can give workers a better life than communism so it started to become what it was destined to.
A 9-5 regardless of sector was guaranteed to give you a life worth living, your own house, sending your kids to college, a good pension, enough food and some luxeries. Helping the company succeed directly benefitted the worker and the worker could also often be PROUD of what they made collectivly. (obviously not true for all of human history, and we can obviously discuss the ethics of any production across time but true enough for this discussion and the time 9-5 started to be a thing)
Now all the money is going to the top, while you can still have a decent life in some sectors it is much harder. The dream of owning your home is out of reach for many, it feels like just surviving and not living. There is zero loyalty towards workers.
So a 9-5 today means giving away your lifetime to a heartless coporation doing shit that benefits no one and still die off a preventable diseas in your 2000 dollar roach infested apartment OR you can do odd jobs with less “security” and at least live your life before you meet the same end.
There are a lot of jobs you can do though that pay good enough money and are still flexible where you don’t feed the orphan crushing machine too much and are almost always in demand. You can work and travel, work in the event sector, hospitality or do something in the art sector. I know people managing weed farms getting high every day, traveling yoga teachers, artists who do odd jobs on the side or people who build their own small businesses where they don’t have to work that much anymore and so on and so forth. But it shouldn’t be on us to find meaningful work, the economy should work for us not the other way around.
[serious] If having a 9 to 5 job is a waste of time and not good enough for finances,
Uhm, I’m not sure where you heard that, but treating it as ubiquitous is odd.
a lot of online “influencers” peddle this trope to get suckers to buy their “get rich quick” tutorial classes. Plays on the “You get to be in the know, don’t miss out” bits of the brain
That makes sense. Still seems weird to me that anyone would make an Internet post from this perspective, which seems to imply everyone already knows that jobs are for suckers.
A sales person speaks to what you want, not what you know. You know you probably need to work, but a part of you rrally wants to learn that one weird trick ro earn lots of money with no effort or to get ripped with Tai Chi.
Communism.
No servant under you and no boss overhead.
The problem is having to work in the first place.
With the current system, most of us have no choice other than to become a wage slave or die.
How can we, in an alternative setting, not have to work? For example, if I want to drink a nice coffee in the morning and enjoy myself, then I need to somehow work directly for this coffee and collect the beans, roast, grind, and brew them, or indirectly buy paying someone to do it for me. Either way, I can’t enjoy it without some kind of work.
Would you please elaborate your point of view?
Work will always be required. The problem however is that work is a coercion under the current system. You work to live, to provide for yourself the requirements for life: food, shelter, and medical care. We do this dispite the fact that our level of technological achievement could provide all those things with very minimal effort. Once you can be provided with these basic fundamental needs with no strings attached, the earnings you do make can go even farther since your not spending as much one food, medical, or shelter. But it goes beyond just these basic needs. As communal creatures we have it in us to reorder society around the well being of people as opposed to the current order: the maitainance of profit and endless growth. This persuite of growth has left the means of life in control of the few, which in turn gives them control over how you get to live. Anyone who thinks that no one will work in the future is foolish. Instead the goal is for work to be a persuite of enrichment for the whole of the community both local and global, to produce such a surplus that those who do not have the ability to work are not coerced into doing so, and those that can will work to ensure we all live dignified and enriched lives.
True, work will always be needed. Even religion talks about work being mandatory. Here j want to make a distinction between the kinds and frameworks of work. Do I work as an employee, do I work as the business owner, or do I work directly for my needs without need for that much money. Something like primitive technology would do by building my house in mg land using wood and dirt from mg own land and do my farming and livestock. But doing all of that is enourmus amount of work. So if I understand correctly your point, you assign all that work to a community and we share the benefit?
The shape of the nature of communal work will take whatever the material conditions demand, but what needs to be true first is that we’re organizing our work around the right ideals and goals. We do that by subordinating the productive forces of society to those goals instead of trying to coax them to those goals like we do now. Automation might be the right solution to the productive process of a given necessity; human labor might be the appropriate solution if automation isn’t sufficiently capable. The boon of our current system is the division of labor and the socialization of labor. That is to say, the revolutionary innovation and progressive force of capitalism is reorganizing labor such that we break down the productive process of any given item into smaller processes that join together to produce a single output. Instead of a handycraftsmen working many hours to build a chair, lathing every spindle, every leg, and every seat, each of those components is produced individually, creating the same chair in a significantly reduced amount of time.
The regressive side of capitalism as a political and economic organization is that it retained feudalism’s private ownership of the means of production. The tools necessary to produce any given necessity. The handycraftsmen owned his tools; he owned the workshop in which he created his crafts, and in the migration to a socialized production model, he retained the ownership of those tools and workshop, and hired peasents to split the productive process into smaller processes. They used his tools and his workshop, but they retained no ownership over what was produced and, as a result, had no authority over how their output was distributed.
To answer your question more directly: “So if I understand correctly your point, you assign all that work to a community and we share the benefit?”
What you’re describing here is a plan. Currently, the productive forces are subject to no plan, just the whims of those who currently own those productive forces. There is no plan that outlines what needs to be produced, what needs to be focused on, to deliver that shared social benefit. Getting to that place is the challenge we face right now. To reach these goals, we have to have a political system that can, and should, place the productive forces that exist now in a kind of cage. One that dictates to the productive forces the priorities of the community.
“Do I work as an employee, do I work as the business owner, or do I work directly for my needs without need for that much money.”
I don’t see how these are at all mutually exclusive; that someone within the community wouldn’t be any of these things over another. Again, the socialization of labor is the driving force of our productive capacity. That, in turn, will require those who perform tasks across the productive process. Some of those tasks are organizational; others are skilled; some require academic theorizing and experimentation. The thing that we’re seeking to remove, however, is the corceon from the system, where someone is compelled to work a job that they are not interested in or fit to perform. How that is organized is one that follows the material conditions of the community. That organization could support “business owners” given that those businesses are not exploitative to workers. However, if the community is well enough organized, there would be no need for an individual to “own” the “business”. Take for example, trash collection. This is a service that is obviously needed, but does it require someone to “own” the “business” of picking up trash and transporting it to landfills or processing centers? Not likely. Trash management is something that was for a long time a service provided for the community by the municipality, county, or state, province, or “regional government.” The more you begin to ask these questions of different sectors of every day life, the more you might find that you do not need a “business owner”.
But again, that really depends on the material conditions. All things are interconnected, and so those conditions are often contingent on external conditions as well. Global material conditions will need to be shifted as well, before we might see more and more of our everyday lives be transformed into communal ownership rather than private ownership by a “business owner”.
You are correct, work will always be required.
Personally, I believe communities are the answer. Instead of working as a baker in exchange for money, why not simply bake goods for my community? Then my neighbour can farm the vegetables and another make repairs in the house and so on.
A lot of families already work like this I think we just need to extend this behaviour to our neighbourhood.
Through much of human history, what you had was either a direct result of your labor or exploitation of the labor of others. As soon as industrial processes came into being, the usefulness of labor was greatly magnified, but the benefits fell mostly to the owners of the processes rather than the workers.
Now imagine a system where the workers or society owned the processes. What once took 50 workers a week could now be accomplished in a day. Thus their workload is greatly reduced. Now carry this to its logical endpoint.
Fully automated screw production BABYYYYYY!!!
I’d couch it as being forced to work to make someone else rich in order to satisfy our basic needs.
there is always the need for work in the sense of “labor”, regardless of the society we live in. it’s a question of who benefits from this labor, who decides what labor is prioritized, and how the fruits are distributed.
Not the OP, but I have a different perspective you may find useful.
Productivity has increased due to automation and mechanisation. The same number of labour hours produces more output. That means that if we wanted the same output we could put in fewer hours to get it.
Wages have not matched this growth since the 80s. Productivity went up, production went up, but wages stayed flat. So for the same number of hours of work we get the same amount of money, but the produced output is higher. Where does the difference in output go?
It goes to the owners, the rich, the class of people who by virtue of owning the factory, company, means of production, and they get all of those extra bits of value without expending any more effort or innovating in any meaningful way. They bring in automation and mechanisation and increase the productivity of the employee without compensating them more for it.
They then continue increasing their wealth by turning everything into a comodity, something that can be made into a financial instrument and traded. They wrap housing up in REITs and healthcare in health insurance companies. They make everything work for their personal wealth and give nothing back.
So in a sane society if you wanted your cup of coffee in the morning it would cost half or less of what it did in the 80s, so you could afford it with half as many hours of your labour. If it took you an hour of labour to afford a week of coffee in the 80s then now it should take 15-30 minutes instead. You should have more free time.
So yes, people would still work at this point. In the future some things would be completely automated and you would not have to pay any meaningful cost for them, they would be essentially free. Other things would be harder to automate and you would still have to exchange hours of your time to afford them. One day everything would be fully automated including the machines to maintain the machines and no human effort would be required to have a decent standard of living, so you could spend time engaging with people, exploring the universe, learning about how things work, making art, and enjoying culture. Essentially, Star Trek.
You are touching an interesting topic here: we produce more with less time and effort than before. This in theory should allow us more free time, but in reality we still work more regardless so that business owner earns more.
However, I see an issue here. The idea you defend does work when producing material goods, like food and goods where we need a means of production that is hard to acquire. But there are other methods where the means of production are cheap and available to everybody, like teaching, or programming or selling. I see here the biggest entry barrier is salesman skills like finding customers and clients, and ability to solve a multi million dollar issue. I chose that wording because raising a capitable in millions of dollars can be done in multiple ways most people do not comprehend. Personally, as a programmer, if I had the ability to convince people and find customers to build things for them, I would have my own company. Or if I had my salesman skills on point I would open my shop or commercial business. Those can also be considered means of production but since they are immaterial skills, I still haven’t finishes building a slot in my mind to receive them.
The issue is when we see those skills applied they seem trivial or too easy anybody could do them but they are also so hard very few people does them. We also often think of them “what did you even do? I am here doing all the work producing all the product” which is true, but lacking customers to sell to is the problem a majority of my aquiances are struggling with.
I do not say those are impossible to do but where the means of production is a skill, how does it change or affect your take?
i presume that having is akin to being forced to, or in other words having no other option, which is not synchronous to having a positive connection with one’s own labour.
I suppose that ‘work’ is in and of itself a loaded term and carries different meanings across cultures and eras. If you love the labour of making coffee (eg. growing, harvesting, roasting, brewing), is that really work? Maybe yes, maybe no.
Anyway, a dumb little ramble.
Slaves used to bust their ass and the owners would provide them with shelter and enough food to keep working. Not much has changed.
A good 9 to 5 is great if you can get it. Get on a union contract, secure good terms. It’s fucking excellent. But there’s a lot of 9 to 5s that are 7 to 9pms. Where bosses call you out of hours constantly. Where there’s no raises, no promotions and no rewards. Faced with the latter then yeah it’s go chase something better by trying to build a business or face financial nihilism.
But of course that’s only half the story. The other half is that there is an economy for people selling you the alternative. They make money on convincing you that no 9 to 5 is worth it. That you’re a beta cuck if you dare accept a traditional role on the corporate ladder.
Every time some kid gives up on college or bails on trade school to try and buy into crypto, Forex, AI chatbots, OnlyFans pimping, day trading, NFTs, drop shipping, Amazon AI publishing, memecoins or any other grift, scam or scheme - there is an army of Alpha, sigma, self made, self powered, un-tethered, outside of the matrix, big G scam artists selling the shovels to the goldrush.
They’re telling you, you’re not being conned, you just weren’t fast enough this time, not smart enough, you didn’t time the market right, buy my course I’ll show you what the insiders know, get ripped, get jacked, sleep longer, sleep less, get up early, never stop hustling, you got to secure the bag, you got to be a man, but not too much, get the girl, win the girl, stop chasing girls, be sharp, be blunt, be a hammer, be deft, be this be that so long get fucked fuck off I got mine get yours.
People who speak of starting a business tend to also think like “pending millionaires”. That are just waiting for their chance. They identify with the scattered success stories instead of the most likely outcome.
Most CEO types are not founders - they worked up the system from the inside. They buy founders out once the hard work has been successful.
Other options include various anarchist and socialistic varieties to varying degrees, Non-capitalistic systems, and others.
Also, know that things change. Not too long ago a factory job was a mode of slavery. Then unions and reform came and it became a key to a well-of and stable future. Until it wasn’t. Advice is often regurgitated wisdom from a past that is no longer relevant.
Free-market economics has been abandoned by both American parties. They are moving into a command-economy mode. Economic uncertainty is inevitable.
Owning a business is not the same as managing a business. Management is administrative labor, and is necessary, but the actual ownership of companies is in a tiny number of hands that work only when they choose to, on their own terms.
The alternative system is socialism, where production is collectivized, and run to suit the needs of society. We can reduce working hours this way when we are not working to fill an endless pursuit of profit and capital valorization, which gives us time to pursue human relationships, educate ourselves, and advance in our hobbies.
If you own your own business, you get all of the profit (assuming there is any!). If you work harder/better, you are likely to earn more money.
For most standard jobs, that’s not the case and other people (who own the company you work for) make money off your work too.
It’s a risky business (heh) owning/running a business though, you don’t have any guarantee you will make money. But you will probably get a bigger proportion of any worth you are creating.
you get all of the profit
This isn’t always really true. You should get a better share for sure, but (obviously heavily dependent on what you do/where you are etc.) in some cases you start to realise how much of your money is STILL sucked away by landlords and middlemen. You own none of the means of production - so if your business requires said means, be prepared to still pay rich people ludicrous sums.
If you own your business you likely own some of the means of production, and in some fields you can own effectively all. Anyway, that’s what “profit” means: what’s left over after you pay operating expenses.
Lots of those middlemen (and even landlords) are going to be other small business owners though.
In the modern world you’re never going to be fully verticaly integrated, and that’s a good thing.
I’ve only worked a 9-to-5 once in my life, as a temp. It wasn’t for me. Mostly I’ve been teaching and waiting tables, a little bartending as well. Since my kids entered school, being home at the same time they are has become my highest priority when choosing a job, and yeah, I sacrifice a little income potential and even work longer hours to make that happen, but there’s no substitute for the time I spend with them; that’s my highest good. And they would rather have time with me than more stuff.
What I’m saying is, you gotta do what works for you. There’s always more money to make but time runs out. I’d rather take my kids to the food bank together than pay for groceries without them, y’know? Even better is using that time to volunteer together at the food bank, so they see the importance of taking care of others; and also see that selling labor for cash and spending the cash isn’t the only way to get what you need.
If you can work from home, it already changes much about a 9 to 5 job.
Well, There is a range of options in my opinion. They range from immediate to long term futur. They range from achievable alone to mass mobilization.
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Reading how peoples sustained themselves during ww1 et ww2 ( start a garden, adopt chicken) but it does take more time and cost reduction is not immediate
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Having a library of thing is a way to help community project like a community garden to do the trick
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work in a cooperative, everyone is owning the workplace and having equal pay. It is not that we don’t produce enough, it is that capitalism is wastefull, the boss of your boss make 20 times what you do, is he 20 more productive that you?
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Help friends and family, they often have things in surplus, than can reduce waste and give away things for free as they exchange it
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Ask for help, you are not the only one struggling, like, we all are, i mean wtf. We all are struggling, we are not angry enough. You will be surprised what peoples are willing to do to help a stranger.
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you are struggling against a system that is quite happy to fine with you struggling, you know what will offer better pay and conditions? Join the army! You can die and torture yourself forever defending a system that put you in such a conditions in the first place.
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mobilize for political change, be creative! As long as you are 75% in accord with a movement, join it but do not compromise if the output is against the right of other people (except power structure like state, richs, or obviously privilegied people) lets be more equals !
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Most people who say owning or investing income is the way to go started out with the means to make this obtainable in their life. Not saying you can’t work your way to that, but you will have to work hard to get there if you aren’t from circumstances where wealth is available to you through non-labor means. I find the majority of the people espousing this ethos the loudest are the “born on third base” types. They have a real need to justify their wealth as “earned.”
