They are both wrong.
The correct way is to argue passionately that your country has committed the MOST war crimes/genocides/human rights violations. Ya know, bragging rights.
Name 5 Chinese war crimes,I’ll wait 😎
- Dragging anchor in the baltic and cutting cables.
- Ramming Philippine ships and assaulting sailors.
- Genocide of the Uyghers.
- Tibet genocide.
- The rampant illegal fishing in every other countries coastline.
#4 is like claiming the Union committed genocide against enslaved people in the Confederacy by abolishing slavery
Please elaborate
1 isn’t a war crimes lmao 2 isn’t a war crime 3. Isn’t a war crime nor is there proof. Literal unbacked western propaganda, wanna know what is backed? Gaza, By the west and Sudan genocide by America via UAE RIGHT NOW, you can literally watch it unfold on all social media 4. Perhaps, I would need to do more research on this one, but didn’t you got 3 wrong, I wouldn’t be surprised if your wrong again. 5. Not a war crime
Edit: no idea how to do formatting on the phone, I apologise
Crimes against humanity are war crimes. Looting is a war crime. Invasion of a sovereign nation is an act of war. Stealing their resources is looting. Genocide is a crime against humanity and Tibet and the Uyghers are in one.
Wolf warriors that bury their head in the sand will suffocate under the lies.
China has been real bad.
Crimes against humanity aren’t war crimes. You’re reading comprehension is lacking my friend. The war in war crimes means warfare.
Speaking of genocides. You have mentioned two. Most genocides on the planet are actively done by America and it’s allies or it supplies the weapons and silences the media.
Considering China having 5 times the population of america. Id say china has been very good comparatively on the world. Also nothing to say how 4 of 5 of your war crimes weren’t at all war crimes??
Crimes against humanity is as good as a warcrime buddy boy
You really thought you did something there. Read my original comment and point to where i denied that or said otherwise 🤣
I did something, It was enough for you to go “waaaaah”
Please list sources for any of these. Preferably not from US or british state media.
Which country do you accept?
The US is currently in a trade war with China, and Britain is still salty about their loss of their hong kong in 1997. So it’s best to get a source from a neutral country, rather than one of their current enemies.
For example, let’s look at what the middle east (a region the US and Britain have also looted, colonized, and bombed for decades) has to say:
- A majority of Muslim countries support China’s policies in XinJiang, and don’t believe the western lies told about it.. 54 Countries in total. 2, 3, 4 Supporters: Algeria, Angola, Bahrain, Belarus, Bolivia, Burkina Faso, Burma, Burundi, Cambodia, Cameroon, Comoros, Congo, Cuba, DR Congo, Egypt, Eritrea, Gabon, Kuwait, Laos, Nigeria, North Korea, Oman, Pakistan, Philippines, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Togo, Turkmenistan, UAE, Venezuela, Zimbabwe.
- Egyptian media delegates provide a detailed insight of the situation in Xinjiang
- A Pakistani Diplomat given full access to “re-education camps” and this is what she found.
- Despite claims of “erasing Uyghur culture”, they stated: “I did not find any instance of forced labor or cultural and religious repression. The imams we met at the mosques and the students and teachers at the Xinjiang Islamic Institute told us that they enjoy freedom in practicing Islam and that the Chinese government extends support for maintenance of mosques all over Xinjiang. […]The most visible sign of protection of Uyghur culture by the government is the government-run bilingual kindergarten schools where children learn Putonghua as well as Uyghur language and culture from a very young age.”
“Provide sources. No not those sources!” -you
If your sources quote “anonymous sources” and nebulous “state documents” without providing access to them, those are shit sources. I wouldn’t trust them even if I didn’t know their track record of making shit up as long as their CIA
handlercontact “confirms” the story.
Here’s 5 actual war crimes
- My Lai massacre Vietnam - America
- Iraq invasion (there’s thousands within this one including Abu ghraib) -america/nato 3- dressing up as medical personnel and massacring a refugee camp to save 1 person in gaza- Israel and America 4- a host of lesser known but many technical war crimes in Afghanistan like bombing undefended villages and towns https://www.culawreview.org/journal/double-standards-in-international-law-did-the-us-get-away-with-war-crimes-in-afghanistan 5- raping children and murdering their family. This is American tactic in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria with many documented cases
yes we are now doing exactly what the meme at the top of the page is doing.
fyi: two spaces at the end of a line will format that correctly as a newline
What do you chuds not understand about “two countries are committing war crimes”? You asked about China and got an answer about China. You’re trying to convince us who’s the second worst empire.
I think you’re missing the WAR part of the WAR CRIME. I thought you’d realise by now, but you’re really digging yourself a hole. Funny thing is there are wars you could have mentioned and war crimes. The point of original comment was to draw our those without any knowledge like you 😜
I’m explaining to you why this comparison is a poor argument, not volunteering to dance around various different arguments all day.
Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
🤝 our governments are committing war crimes
Ultimately we have more in common with a normal Chinese person just trying to live their lives than any of us do with our ruling classes. I’m sure those same ruling classes would rather us be less aware of that fact.
Idk why there’s such a pissing match in this post. Like honestly. Both our governments are shit. Why is this even a debate as to whose government is committing war crimes more? Your comment is the best comment here by far.
If a serial murderer told you that their victims were actually much worse than they are, would you believe them?
Yet the source of pretty much all anti-china atrocity propaganda is the US and its orgs like the victims of communism foundation. They want you to believe every single country they hate, China, Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, etc… are guilty of the same crimes they are. Why do you believe them?
What war is China supposedly involved in?
They still need to finish there civil war TIWIAN WILL BE RETURNED
The inner battle of not issuing a final warning, duh. Truly a vicious war.
you see, these 2 are equally as bad because a german that doesn’t speak a word of mandarin and has not ever visited china provided me a satellite picture of a big building and wrote a fan fiction about it.
Yeah like wtf is this lmao, apparently “war crime” is now when bad country does bad thing
Well Americans are certainly telling Chinese users that their government is committing warcrimes like the meme says
In which war lol?
Exactly lol
Uyghur genocide
? The UN has thoroughly investigated and concluded that the ‘Uyghur genocide’ is a fabrication https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ohchr-assessment-human-rights-concerns-xinjiang-uyghur-autonomous-region I suggest you read it rather than have it filtered through biased western media orgs, and I trust their investigation a lot more than those from countries like the US that have a vested interest in painting China as negatively as possible
Even if the propaganda were true it would constitute a crime against humanity not a war crime, unless you consider the ETIM terror campaign a ‘war’
A fabrication? Did you even read that pdf? I quote:
Serious human rights violations have been committed in XUAR in the context of the Government’s application of counter-terrorism and counter-“extremism” strategies. The implementation of these strategies, and associated policies in XUAR has led to interlocking patterns of severe and undue restrictions on a wide range of human rights. These patterns of restrictions are characterized by a discriminatory component, as the underlying acts often directly or indirectly affect Uyghur and other predominantly Muslim communities.
So, no mention of genocide?
Sure, it’s all rosy. :)
No one’s said there’s not problems and criticisms to be made, but there just isn’t a genocide no matter how much your narrative requires one
Here you have comment, from this thread, of someone saying there’s basically no problems: https://lemmy.ml/comment/16144139
Denial of racism and abuse by the Chinese state is rampant here on Lemmy, don’t pretend otherwise.
Oh and please don’t assume my narrative. I hate the US more.
Yep, no war crimes 👍
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiEhITvJuyE
You can watch this and look for any evidence of your claim. You wont see any. Or you can take my word for it when i tell you i literally spoke to a uyghur from Xinjiang on XHS the other day and they were chillin enjoying life.
Either way maybe dont just take the word of whatever Western Media mouthpieces tell you?
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well documented genocide.
source?
the UN, it addition to numerous countries including those with a Muslim majority population have investigated and concluded that the claims of genocide are a fabrication
The claims of genocide that appear in western media can be traced back to single source; Adrian Zenz a german christian fundamentalist who is on a self described ‘holy war to destroy China’ and writes books such has ‘Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation,’
Do you really believe this nutjob is a more reliable source on events in Xinjiang than the UN’s Office of Human Rights?
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Please read the entire article and don’t just cheery pick the things that fit your pre-conceived notions
Stop moving the goalposts, my claim is that their is no genocide, the only source you quote alleges serious human rights violations, that while obviously terrible(and I condemn them, just as I condemn the US’s similar but greater and larger in scale abuses committed at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, CIA blacksites etc), are not synonymous with genocide
Which sources on that page present evidence of genocide? if any such source exists why didn’t you quote them?
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“It’s well-documented!”
“May I see the documents?”
“…No.”Removed by mod
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Is this, like, your catchphrase?
All vloggers are paid by CPC, every Chinese you meet on the internet are bots. /s
Yeah, not really comparable when it comes to war crimes. If someone wanted to conflate a topic that makes both countries look similarly bad in an honest light, it would be the treatment of ethnic minorities.
the treatment of ethnic minorities
You mean the US having the highest prison population in the world, to the point of 1 in 5 black men over 30 having been to jail at some point of their lives?
That would not be an honest light. China actually takes their affirmative action seriously and not just pays lip service to it while continuing to enact genocidal policies like the US still does on the indigenous peoples of the mainland and occupied Hawai’i which has been gentrified and settled to the point of being unlivable for most of the locals.
The claims of China’s abuse of ethnic minorities are a scam espoused by the same people profitting off the genocide in Palestine. Anybody who takes the evidence seriously instead of treating accusations as trustworthy because of the volume of them doesn’t understand (or chooses to ignore) how the US propaganda machine has always worked.
People still on that “China genocide” bs are about as ridiculous as people claiming Iraq had WMDs into the Obama years. It’s a level of gullibility so big that it has to be voluntary.
enact genocidal policies like the US still does on the indigenous peoples of the mainland and occupied Hawai’i which has been gentrified and settled to the point of being unlivable for most of the locals.
And the same has been said about tibet, inner Mongolia, and xinjiang. I mean you can look at Chinas own census data and see that han Chinese are migrating to cities in xinjiang, displacing ethnic minorities to move away from their cultural cities.
The claims of China’s abuse of ethnic minorities are a scam espoused by the same people profitting off the genocide in Palestine. Anybody who takes the evidence seriously instead of treating accusations as trustworthy because of the volume of them doesn’t understand (or chooses to ignore) how the US propaganda machine has always worked.
You are conflating the accusations of genocide in one region with the accusations of ethnic discrimination. Even in that grey zone article it is conflating the study from some weird neocon group with all investigations into ethnic discrimination in China.
Han chauvinism is an established concept that even Mao took aims to curtail. Something they are still combating considering there has only been one ethnic minority to serve in the central committee in the last 35 years.
An actual criticism that I have about Xi is that he is a bit culturally conservative. The belt and road initiative utilized a lot of han centric language and the current central committee is notably the first committee that has no women serving on it in the last +25 years.
One side is right tho
Na both are right. All countries have blood on their hands. It’s honestly not a good comparison.
sure the united states has comparable blood on their hands as China 😂 aight buddy
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I mean if you want to count down to the individual blood cell spilled of course is going to be different. But the pressures that make the US do horrible stuff are the same pressures that make China do horrible stuff are the same pressures that make any country do horrible stuff.
Who the fuck pressures the US to invade countries abroad ?
The wealthy and the powerful. Nobody else is interested in sticking their neck out. Those that are, are influenced by propaganda that is controlled by the wealthy and powerful.
Finally, a sane take
I’m going to go on my grad account just to downvote this trash
This meme sucks.
Thanks
¿Porque no los dos?
The worst accusation you could make about China’s alleged warcrimes are how neutral they are in regards to Israel. They also sell guns to both sides of the Kashmir conflict, which isn’t great. They have sold guns to Israel in the past as commerce, but that’s a far cry from the west simply giving Israel weapons and intelligence for free.
Whereas the USA invades a new country on average every 1.5 years and has over 800 overseas military bases. China hasn’t had an active overseas military conflict since the Vietnam war. This isn’t a comparison at all.
One of the most frustrating things that I see so commonly, is that when there is criticism of the Chinese government, it is almost always redirected into whataboutism about the US.
I’m not from the US or China. My views are that both these governments are terrible, though I admittedly am not very informed about China. But these kinds of non-responses do not help.
Edit: I do realise that this meme itself sort of sets up the comparison, but I just wish we could analyse the actions of each government independently, without making excuses for one by pointing fingers at the other.
“I’m not informed, but they’re terrible!” Is a pretty arrogant take.
I’m sorry, is it discouraged to be self aware? It is very common to have preconceived ideas about things based on media/whatever, however I am trying to be self aware enough to realise that this view isn’t based on very much research, which is why I’m trying to re-evaluate it.
Surely it is far more arrogant to assume I have no ill-informed views, and that I have never been affected by misinformation.
You’re arguing with tankies. You are attacking China in their eyes. You are fighting a losing battle because you cannot convince them China has major faults and blemishes and systemic issues like the US.
I don’t think that’s a useful framing. The central thesis of most “tankies” is that the version of the PRC that exists in the minds of Westerners and the version that exists in reality are fundamentally different, and that this is largely due to a concerted effort by western countries to depict China in a negative light exclusively. That does not mean that there aren’t serious problems with the PRC, or that it doesn’t have a long way to go, but admitting to having a negative stance without doing much investigation means that they should investigate, rather than contribute to a miasma of other ill-informed takes.
I think calling situation in Xinjiang as a war crime was sloppy…
Should said genocide and the meme stands
there are like a billion youtube videos of people traveling in Xinjiang and finding nothing wrong.
Hard to commit warcrimes when you don’t participate in war.
Which country allows their citizens to openly speak about and protest said war crimes?
Not America & not China, this isn’t a competition
Andrew Wimmer was handcuffed and taken to jail on January 22, 2003 because he refused to protest in a ““designated protest zone”” that was out of sight of the President as well as local and national TV news cameras.
A woman, armed with a ““We Love You Bush”” sign showed up at the same corner shortly after Wimmer’s arrest. Wimmer asked the police if they were going to arrest her if she didn’t move and they said, ““no.”” The police also allegedly blocked the national press camera crews and an AP reporter from approaching the protest zone to do reporting.
https://www.aclu.org/documents/dissent-forced-be-out-sight-and-out-mind
That’s a far cry from how china suppresses protests. And really a small individual example. Overall there’s a clear freedom of expression and civil protest in the US. The same absolutely cannot be said about china.
I love how people just say this. Like you know lol
Can you draw the chinese leader as Winnie the pooh in China without repercussions? I can do it to my leader where I’m at.
Can you find me a person in China who will tell you that’s true or did you pick that up from memes of people posting Winnie the Pooh xi?
You learned in highschool what a reliable source is and “cultural osmosis” is not a valid source.
China, but also the PRC hasn’t been in a war in like 50+ years. Meanwhile the US killed a million innocent people in Iraq, and goes after whistleblowers like Assange, Snowden, and Manning for speaking out about its war crimes. And the Obama administration prosecuted a record number of whistleblowers, and had a zero tolerance policy towards them.
Try to talk about the Tiananmen Square in China, Monsieur Jacques I.
“haha if you say tiananmen square in a league of legends match the Chinese get banned” is your source
What about the Tiananmen square massacre?
- Notes for the 30th anniversary of the Tiannment incident.
- It wasn’t a massacre of peaceful students, but a skirmish between PLA soldiers and armed detachments from the pro-capitalist / free market reform movement. The protest movement, as evidenced by their own accounts, called for market liberalisation, and free market reforms, rallying around a replica of the statue of liberty. After the movement had been building in the square for seven weeks, unarmed soldiers were sent in to disperse the protesters, after which many soldiers were beaten to death, torched, and lynched. The New York Times death count went from 2600, to many thousands, to 8000, to tens of thousands. In reality only around ~200 (including soldiers) were killed or trampled, in smaller clashes outside the square. The on-scene New York Times reporter disavowed the article, especially about machine-gunning of protesters. A wikileaks cable from a US ambassador to the US state department, confirmed that no killings or machine-gunnings took place in the square.
- Latin American diplomat eyewitness account of June 3-4 events on Tiananmen Square wikileaks (PDF)
- There was a Spanish television crew that covered the entire Tiananmen Square incident as it unfolded. Their footage showed that there was no massacre. A few things worthy of pointing out - Liu Xiaobo and Hou Dejian, both student leaders of the Tiananmen protests, have been recorded as saying that they never saw anyone killed at the protests.
- The protest movement followed the line of “color revolutions”, in which the US tried to destabilize and create counter-revolutions in eastern Europe and Latin America after the fall of the USSR. The strategy was to stir division within and without, by inundating the media with news of massacres of “peaceful”, pro-capitalist / market reformers.
- The defeat of a counter revolution in China.
- Interviews from some of the student leaders.
- An account from a resident.
- Tiananmen Square “Massacre”, A Propaganda Hoax.
- The truth about the Tiananmen square protests
But the tank
Checkmate commies
I just posted this elsewhere, and I’m sure you’ve already seen it but here’s the full video of the tank man:
https://odysee.com/@swprs:3/tiananmen-tank-man-1989-hd-full:b
Does not get run over, no violence.
Did they bring in some tanks as well? Or if they did are we allowed to talk about it?
Outside of “Chinese man gets removed from his league of legends match cause a player talked about tiananmen square” memes, what do you know about Chinese censorship?
Talking out your ass
I know that they don’t like people asking for a free Tibet and independence for Hong Kong. Are there any good mainstream Chinese media articles that talk about these subjects?
When was the last demonstration made against central leadership? Or everyone just loves it there? Why do they have a firewall that blocks youtube?
I’m gonna answer that last one cause it’s the only one I know lol.
So you know how we are banning tiktok because we are afraid of China influencing America? So fun fact, America does that. We are like, cultural colonists. We have created a sort of global super culture that has gotten into every countries lives.
And we have 100% used that as a sort of “in” with locals in countries we were not friends and then we would use that influence to radicalize the right wing ideologies in the country and cause destabilization and, all things going well, revolutions. See: all of south America and the Middle East (hi Afghanistan).
So with all that in mind. With the world’s greatest super power systematically using its cultural influence as a soft power start with encouraging revolutions in your country for its own geo political gain. All that in mind. It’s kinda the most obvious move in the world. The US is doing it right now because they “perceived” it happening to us. If China became a big cultural export to the world you’d bet your ass that we would great firewall ourselves off. We just don’t have to. Because we are big dog. Woof woof. And China don’t have a large amount of cultural export.
Sidenote. A Chinese company, tencent was making investments into videogames. They own riot who make league of legends and they have been getting their finger into a lot of studios for that sweet gamer money. The US gov said this game investment company is “apart of the Chinese military” lol.
Like, the Netherlands or something maybe?
And the top comment on that video is defending the police, fascism has it’s hold in many places
The removed of fascism is always in heat
lol .ml censoring your word here is super apropos
“Fascism is when you have to infer a word from context to avoid being called slurs” (Albert Fascism, creator of the .ml TLD
Thanks for posting, didn’t know about that!
To be fair I mainly wanted to jokingly tell the commentator that both china and the us are guilty of this, so I just mentioned a third country that I thought was decent. Thanks for educating :)
Americans have jesters privilege. We can say anything we want as long as it doesn’t matter. As soon as the government thinks it might matter, they have a million tools to silence you.
As soon as
the governmentoligarchs who own the media thinksit might matter, they have a million tools to silence you.But it’s also worth noting that the Chinese don’t even have that. At least in America, you can get your message out by getting a billionaire to agree with you.
This is horse shit. There are examples of protests being countered (e.g. When Trump gassed protesters and clergy members to hold a Bible up upside down at their church), but these examples are rare and those people weren’t actually “silenced”. They told everyone about what happened.
Americans have freedom of speech protected by our constitution. China, on the other hand, has actual laws dictating against many forms of speech.
For example… “The PRC bans certain content regarding independence movements in Tibet and Taiwan, the religious movement Falun Gong, democracy, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre, Maoism, corruption, police brutality, anarchism, gossip, disparity of wealth, and food safety scandals.”
The US cracked down on Gaza protests quite harshly. Many states enact book bans these days and some ban topics like slavery from schools. Also historically protests against Vietnam were partly gunned down. The black panthers were often murdered and in fighting them the US even bombed one of its own towns. Red Scare was huge and Ernest Hemmingway was probably driven to his suicide by FBI surveillance, for which he was called paranoid but later proofed real by declassified files.
Censorship in China goes farther, but the US is far from being a free speech haven or ever having been that.
How well did the protests about gaza go over then? You are hand waving away something we all lived through and saw. From unions to college campuses, protesting has never been a protected right. You can only protest as much as those in power allow you to in your area.
Even those not in power shit on protestors when it affects their lives. People start saying things like “thats not the way to protest” or “this isn’t the time or place, have some respect”.
Its bullshit, and we do not have the freedom to speak our minds, unless we already agree with what we are expected to.
Can you post pictures of a tank event in the 80s in China without censoring? Can you talk about these protests ?
Well considering a majority of americans think the tank guy got ran over and murdered on camera for everyone to see, maybe not so crazy they quash that one.
Edit: I encourage those who aren’t aware to go watch the full footage, its not shocking in the least, many will find it anticlimactic even.
Edit 2: took forever to find the full video, its not in full on youtube or anything like that I could find: https://odysee.com/@swprs:3/tiananmen-tank-man-1989-hd-full:b
